Transcript

Rich Ziade And the silence is just brutal. It’s way more brutal than me, who’s just like, what have you done? And then I jump out the window and come back up on the elevator to finish yelling at you. 

[Intro music starts, fades in, ramps up.]

Gina Trapani Hey Chris!

Chris LoSacco Hey Gina! We’re live.

GT We’re live! I’m excited to talk about this today. I’ve been feeling something very acutely lately, and it just happens to be the topic of today’s episode. And we have a special guest. So very excited to talk about this.

CL Yes. Share who it is.

GT Everything that I have ever learned about impatience as a leader, I’ve learned from Mr. Richard Ziade, who is joining us today on this episode. Hi Rich.

RZ Hey guys, I’ve got six minutes. So let’s move this along and then I’ve got to go. [Everyone laughs.] I’ve got shit to do.

[1:02]

GT Very on brand. You have a hard out? Yeah, okay. We’ve got to get this rolling. [Everyone laughs.]

RZ Yeah, exactly, exactly. It’s great to do this. I’m looking forward to this conversation.

GT Every once in a while, and I’m embarrassed to admit how often this happens, I Slack Chris and say every day I become a little bit more like Rich. And then I move on to complaining about why something isn’t happening as quickly as I want for it to happen. And I’m sort of—this feels like a confession—it’s a character flaw. Like nothing ever happens as quick—I have been steeped in my own impatience, but it’s become more acute in the past year or so. [Everyone laughs.] And I’ve really had to wrestle with it, right? Because when I’m feeling impatient, I feel like, okay, this is about me. This is a character flaw. This is about me not being a good person or not being a good leader. I want to process this with you two. [Laughs.]

RZ Yeah. I’ll tell you one of my coping mechanisms when you have that moment—when you’re like, is it me?—is to just consistently blame everyone else around you. [Everyone laughs.] And it centers you somehow, it’s really something. I appreciate you—you say this to me every so often. You’re like, I’m getting more and more like you every day, which makes me sound like a spreading skin infection, but I’m totally okay with it. [Everyone laughs.]

GT I mean it as a compliment.

[2:24]

RZ I know, I know. I appreciate it.

GT As I grow as a leader, I’m more and more aligned with Rich and Paul, which I truly mean that as a compliment.

RZ No, I know. It makes me feel good when I read it, full disclosure.

GT Do you have a constant ticking clock in the back of your head, Rich? Like, does the tick tock haunt you at night in the morning when you wake up and when you’re getting ready for work? Is that a thing for you? Because this is very much a thing for me.

RZ Oh yeah. And I would say it’s a feature some of the time, it’s a bug a lot of the time. Landing in a beautiful sunny Caribbean place and it’s five days and you need days one and two to try not to do that is a real struggle. [Gina laughs.]

CL Yeah. You’ve got to spin down the engine.

GT Yeah.

RZ I have friends who like, the plane touches down and a margarita pops into their hand, like in the seat. And they just flip a switch like, I’m on vacation mode and whatnot. I can’t do it. It’s something deeply rooted and would require a lot of therapy. And I’m 52 and the ship has sailed. I think that’s where I’m at at this point. It’s like, really you’re gonna put all that money into that old car? You’re just going to get a new car. Like what’s—[Everybody laughs.]

[3:40]

GT It’s so funny. I took a vacation recently. It was lovely. I really aspire to be that person who sets it all down and just disconnects, truly. Because honestly, you feel like you do some of your best thinking when you separate it. But Chris and I always have the like pre-PTO sync-up before one of us is out of the office. And that pre-PTO sync-up, I had several items where I was like, do not let this slow down because I’m out of the office, make sure that this keeps going while I’m out. Because I just was like, I was terrified that not being there and asking and pressing would mean that some—and nothing did slow down. And I should say, we have an amazing team at Postlight who gets an incredible amount of work done.

CL Yes we do.

GT On time. I literally have nothing to complain about, but as a leader, I still have that, like, where is this thing? How is this going? Why is this taking so long? I have that thing where like, your antenna goes up and goes, is something wrong? Something must be wrong. Either priorities are misaligned or there’s a blocker that we didn’t anticipate and didn’t kind of bubble up to us and this needs to be addressed. Right? That never stops. I’m trying to just embrace it and express it in a way that’s productive and doesn’t make people feel bad or tear them down, or like, you know, demotivate folks. And there’s an art to that. And I’m still very much learning that.

[4:56]

RZ I’m in the same place. It’s one of my weaknesses. I tend to project anxiety and stress to get things done. And it’s not because I like power. It’s because I’m trying to essentially simulate direct control when there are other intermediaries called human beings between what I want to happen and me. Right? And I think I’ve chilled. I mean, I’d love to hear your perspective. I think I’ve chilled out a little bit. I actually have consciously tried to partly because of Paul, frankly. Paul very much sort of evens it out because he could hear me rant for 10 minutes and then he’ll turn to me and say, everything’s going really well. And then I want to just jump through the Slack and punch him in the face. But he’s right. It’s been a slow conditioning of accepting and trusting, frankly, some of the best people I’ve ever worked with in my life are in this place. So chill out. Right?

GT Yeah. Chris and I have a similar dynamic. I mean, Chris, my wonderful business partner who’s very even and calm in times when I am wildly gesticulating and like ranting about things. I will rant about something that I’m feeling anxious about or impatient about. And then Chris has this amazing ability to take it all in and say, I hear what you’re saying. What should we do about this? Like you go directly to like, what should the next step here be? How should we address this? What’s a good way to address it?

CL Yeah. Well I think, I mean the whole central conceit here is that impatience is actually a good thing. And when you channel it well, it can be very valuable, right? Because if you use the source of the impatience as a catalyst, right, a motivating factor to address something, to make some change with your team or with marketing or whatever it is, that’s very valuable, right? I mean the other side of the coin, on one hand, it’s like, I’m impatient, I want to get it done. But there are positive values that we also talk about, right? We describe people as ambitious or optimistic because they want to get something done. And it’s the same thing in a weird way. It just has to be directed. I mean, Rich, that’s something you do well, actually. Sometimes it comes out as anxiety, but oftentimes it comes out as, you know, well, why can’t we do more? And what’s preventing us from shipping two weeks earlier or adding that extra feature? And that can actually be very clarifying when you talk about it with a team.

RZ I think you’re touching on something here that’s interesting around impatience, which is you can be impatient, how you express impatience is another matter. Exactly. For many years I found Chris LoSacco infuriating. I’m going to say it out loud.

[7:46]

GT Oh, say more about that. 

CL Thanks a lot. 

GT He’s so calm in the face of just like an absolute storm. It’s wild—I admire it. It’s amazing.

RZ You can call it amazing. That’s one thing you can call it. Another thing you can call it. Well, let me give you an example. I’ll walk in like, wow, sit down, Chris. We’ve shit the bed. [Gina laughs.] And then I’ll go for six minutes straight talking about the absolute catastrophe we are finding ourselves in. And I need him to be—I’m like, I can’t believe they did that. And instead you get this clinical stare coming right back at you. And sometimes I just want him to throw the fit and there’s no fit. And I’ve got to say—you don’t want the surgeon being upset and emotional, right? You want even-handedness. You want thoughtfulness, you want calm. So I’ve come to appreciate that. Gina, I think you’re closer to Chris than me in that you also don’t lose your shit. I’ve seen you get frustrated and I gotta tell you one bit that I envy about both of you. If I scream for 20 minutes straight, after like minute six, nobody’s hearing screaming anymore. They’re hearing like Carly Simon in their heads.

GT [Laughs.] I love Carly Simon.

[9:10]

RZ I do too. They’re not hearing me anymore. 

CL Right. 

RZ There are few things more terrifying than the blank stare of Chris LoSacco or Gina looking at you, who has perpetually sympathetic eyes, but is clearly disappointed. [Gina laughs.] And the silence is just brutal. So I think you guys have a healthier way. I think you call it impatience. I call it—anticipation is a better way—I mean, a good leader, especially someone that has, you know, the amount of responsibility that you guys have, has to anticipate. Good leaders are anticipating good and bad potential outcomes. That’s what we do.

GT Mmh.

RZ How do you then translate that and motivate people to orient themselves to anticipate things without creating this aura of stress and anxiety and like time’s running out. Time’s running out. Time’s running out. I mean the agency world can break you, right? It can do that to you.

GT There’s always a clock. It’s a people business. So there’s always issues to work out. Something that I think about a lot is having the appropriate reaction to something, right? Like not underreacting and not overreacting. My kid at school, they do this exercise called small problem, medium problem, big problem. Where they give them examples of things that have happened, like the house is on fire. Like you run out of crayons. Is that a big problem, small problem, or medium-size problem? And then the way that you should react. The moment that you call 911, cause someone’s on the floor not responding. Right? Versus like, stomping off to your room and crying cause you can’t watch the last five minutes of a YouTube video. And we play it all the time at home and it’s something that I play in my head, like what size problem is this? So there are times when I never want to underreact. This is something that I think Rich I’ve learned from you a lot. Like there have been times when you’d be like, you see all these indicators and I don’t see you reacting. Why aren’t you reacting? That’s that antenna for risk and getting ahead of it versus, you know, reacting when it’s kind of blowing up in your face. But I also think that there’s overreactions, right? Like I think that you can, you know, and there have been times Rich—I’ll say it—when you’ve been ranting and very upset. And I’m just like, okay, this is a problem. We should deal with it. I don’t know that it reaches this level. You know what I mean? [Laughs.] And I’m always trying to calibrate.

[11:31]

RZ Like 80% of the time. [Everyone laughs.]

GT Well, I think because it’s your style to apply pressure when you feel like no one else is. I realize when you see me internalize the anxiety and frustration about a thing, that’s when you relax. Because you realize that I’ve got it. 

RZ Exactly. 

GT Right? So it took me like a couple of years to figure that out Rich, and I’m sure you could think of specific meetings that we’ve had where I’ve made that connection, like, oh, Rich, doesn’t see me internalizing this problem, which is why he’s ranting right now.

RZ Yeah, yeah. I’ve seen you evolve. You used to be very reactive. You’re like, okay, I can volley this. And then over time we would have management meetings and you would be coming in with like, I’m gonna tell you the five things that are really frustrating me right now. And one of them I’m done with, and this is what’s gonna happen. And at that point that’s that’s you on—you’ve internalized it… 

GT It’s a new level. 

RZ Yeah, exactly, exactly. And a lot of that is—I think one of the things that’s common amongst all of us, even though it may not look like it with me, is none of us find the control and power appealing.

CL It’s true.

[12:44]

RZ Yeah. We don’t get excited about it. It doesn’t make us feel good. It feels like a big responsibility. There’s a lot of responsibility and I can be misread as a megalomaniacal and power hungry because I’m loud. But actually, that’s just me trying to warn everyone that there is a tornado behind you while you work on your garden and you just haven’t noticed it yet. Right? And so that’s not power and ego, it’s not what that is. Right? So it is not our job to let scary things ricochet off of us into everyone that works at Postlight. It’s not our job. In fact, it’s our job to actually absorb that stressor and then translate it into calmly stated goals, actions, next steps, whatever it may be on a bigger level, strategy, vision, and whatnot, versus like nobody wants to work at a company whose mission it is to avoid disaster. It’s not a very—it’s not a very good mission. It’s not very motivating. Right? And so that, I think that’s a key component to like great leadership, good, quiet, calm, healthy leadership. I think I was effective for a while and I think I’ve calmed down, but I think there are people who have just better dispositions for it.

GT People respond to different kinds of leadership styles and communication styles differently.

RZ I think that’s right. Yeah.

[14:12]

CL I mean, I think something that you do well, Rich, on a project level—and I’ve seen you do it directly and also encourage project leaders to do—is introduce friction, which sounds like a bad thing. But as a forcing function to reveal what choices you’re making and you may not realize you’re making. I think it’s very easy, especially at bigger companies, for teams to be like, well, you know, I can’t do this because of X or I have to wait for Jim’s team to finish the blah, blah, blah before we can, you know. So that’s going to be May instead of March. And I think something that you do and that I’ve tried to do, watching you do it is say, but why does it have to be that way? How could we do it a different way? What would that look like? And sort of introducing that artificial friction, but it prompts these discussions that can reveal like, oh, this isn’t actually a blocker. Or we thought we were working on this high priority effort, but really we were dealing with this lower thing because it was sitting in front of this bigger thing. So sometimes you have to like prod a little bit, not because you want to be the taskmaster project lead, but because it will cause you to reshuffle things that you didn’t even know were coming up in the works.

[15:36]

RZ Yeah. And that isn’t a hidden-agenda driven tactic. It’s literally coming out of, I think one of my skills is the ability to jump off the treadmill.

CL Exactly.

RZ And actually come at it from a complete—like we’re gonna do it completely differently than you thought. And that’s not me trying to surprise people. That’s me wanting to kind of avoid the extreme subjectivity that comes in when you’re inside of anything. And so how do you get out of that and come up with different ways of approaching things. I’m working on a board which spun out of Poslight Labs and I pulled the designer aside, the lead designer on it, Matt, and I had five slides ready for him, which was like, there are a lot of things I’m not happy about right now. And I was like, I want to talk to you about them. Essentially this isn’t great. And I want to revisit them because we’re gonna do something great. And that was not an easy conversation, but where he took it was amazing. And he didn’t even know he had the freedom to go do it.

CL That is actually a superpower. You know, I think there are a lot of people out there leading projects who think, well, I just have to be, you know, patient and see how this develops and work with my team and let them do their thing. And again, to make your point again, people don’t even know that they can go further because the prompt isn’t there. And so these things that can sort of seem like you’re bringing the hammer down or you are critiquing an approach or a set of work or something. It’s not that. It is a step towards this larger goal to say, let’s expand our thinking. Let’s come at it from a different way, etc. So that’s where the impatience really works in your favor because it pushes the team into places that they didn’t think they could go.

[17:35]

RZ This is unique to our industry. This kind of open-endedness in terms of pathway to solution is very—the other end of the spectrum is like medicine, like medicine has, if it’s like this condition, there is a particular protocol. The decision tree is very brightly focused.

GT Our industry, yeah. I mean, this is a great part of it.

RZ Yeah, it’s fun, but people can’t help but try to fall into sort of more predictable patterns that frankly avoid disaster. They just want to succeed in what they’re doing. And they’re like, I’ve done this countless times before. That’s why they love processes and frameworks around work and things like that. I’m gonna follow this recipe and we’re gonna be okay. I think one of the very cool things about Postlight is that we aren’t a fill-in-the-blank shop. We’re not an agile—we’re not anti those things, but it takes a little bit of an adventurous mind to say, you know what, why are we spinning like this? Can’t we do it different? And that’s not typical. 

CL Yep.

[18:43]

GT Yeah. That’s a particular profile. A pattern that I have observed through trying to manage my own impatience productively is that you’re feeling anxiety and impatience and frustration about something. And you say to the person responsible, like where’s the thing? And you often get back, oh, you know, we’re working on it. But you know, everyone’s really busy with other things, but we’re going to get to it, it’s in the queue. And then if it’s something that’s really important—which it usually is, because I’m only going to feel impatient about this stuff if it’s really important—I say, what other things and why has this fallen behind it? Right? And that’s when it comes out that the priorities that are very clear in my brain, right? Like the big, small, medium—you have big problems queuing up behind small problems, right? And that’s a moment where I say, okay, as a leader, I did not communicate the urgency and the priority of this thing. And I’m communicating it by being like, where’s the thing that we talked about? Because we need the thing, like this is a big problem. And that didn’t come across in the first conversation about it. And this is, I think, really hard for people. You’ve got your task list, you’ve got your marching orders, you start working on a thing, it’s in flight. You want to see it through, you want to get to completion. You want to check it off the list and deliver the thing. We all want that. But when something else gets added on to the queue, you’re like, I’ll get to that in a minute. I’m just going to finish this thing that I’ve got going already. And something that I have not unlocked is like, when is the moment when you say: this goes ahead of everything else. That’s very disruptive to people’s work lives. And you have to kind of communicate why that is. That takes a pretty mature leader to read that room and read that request or internalize why is it so important in the business? Oh, I see. Okay. Let’s rejig things a little bit.

[20:25]

RZ There’s two ways to attack that. One is the most heavy-handed, which is: this Friday, you’re going to show me this thing.

GT [Laughs.] Right. The deadline-driven task assignment.

RZ I’m not going to explain to you why this is really important to me or the organization, but this Friday, you’re going to present this thing to me and I’m going to give you feedback. So that is easiest. It doesn’t engender a great working dynamic, because now you’re officially the capital C customer, right? It is my method of last resort, which frankly is a lot of the time for me. The better approach, but more difficult to pull off, is an ability to project and internalize that hierarchy in others. Not the tasks that spin off the hierarchy, but the actual hierarchy.

GT The actual priorities.

RZ The actual priorities and the actual drivers behind them and the why behind them. The truth is most people don’t hear ’em. They go to the tasks, their brains go right to the tasks. The ones that do hear them are your future leaders.

GT Yes.

RZ They are actually the ones that are quickly realizing and aligning with them. One of the biggest red flags for leaders is if you’re finding you’re having to explain a lot of the time why you need their teams to do the thing, then that’s gonna be a slog. That’s gonna be a slog. They don’t have to wave the flag. That’s not what I’m suggesting here, but they have to internalize and understand why X is more important than Y for right now. I wish I did the latter better than the former. I’m a classic customer-driven type. I want to ask you guys a question. We’ve been talking to leaders so far as we’re recording this podcast. Talk to someone in the middle of the organization. Right? Who is looking at us like space aliens a little bit right now. And what can they do and what can they look for?

GT I think that a charter, a strategy document, a big fancy presentation. These are some of the ways that companies communicate values and priorities and approaches. They’re a fine thing. But I think the best thing is just to say to the person above you, your manager, maybe their boss, a leader in the company who you see is distracted or concerned or worried, or is driving a lot of the action, just to say like, how’s it going? What are you worried about? What’s on your mind? I know that there are power dynamics here and it’s hard.

[23:18]

CL Team-member talking.

GT Team member to—yeah.

RZ Manager, director, whatever. Yeah.

GT Like what’s on your mind? What are the things that worry you? One of my favorite things to ask leaders that are clients, or just friends or people that I get to meet is: so what are you worried about? Or what are you thinking about? Like, what’s the thing that’s most on your mind. And you’re going to get an answer, right? Because we’re all wired. I mean, anyone in a leadership position has always got like three or four top threads contending for all the brain resources. I imagine you’re a CPU activity monitor and they’re going to want to talk about it and you’ll often get so much insight. I think what you often hear is like, is there a strategy somewhere? What’s our big strategy? Where’s our charter, where are values, where are priorities? I think that that’s an artifact. I think companies should produce those artifacts for sure. But in a real time, day-to-day business situation, a really great way to understand what’s going on in your org is to ask. And I understand that it’s hard to have casual conversations and there are power dynamics and maybe you don’t pass that person in the hall or see them in the kitchen. But when you do, I think kind of opening that up and becoming the person who listens versus the person who’s saying, I don’t know, I’m all over the place and I don’t know what I’m responsible for and this company doesn’t have any strategy. Like there’s a difference in those approaches.

[24:28]

RZ I think what you’re saying is—I want to unpack it cause I think it’s profound what you’re saying. If I’m in the middle of an organization and I’m frustrated and I say, why are we doing this? Could somebody give me a rationale or a strategy? Then I’ve made me the center of the narrative. You have not met my qualifications. And I am not bought in. I’m not invested and I’m not going to wear your team jersey. I’m being a little dramatic here, but that’s what you’re doing. What you suggested is highlighting something, which is that those leaders are actually you—maybe four years out—and have anxiety and stresses. And to say, what’s on your mind and what’s bothering you is so profoundly different. Now you are not the center of the story. You are talking to that person. And we’re not saying go kiss ass. That’s not what this is. That I think went out of fashion in the late eighties.

[25:30]

GT Yeah. Complimenting the boss.

RZ Yeah, complimenting the boss on their shoes. At Postlight, it probably gets you demoted at this point.

CL That’s the thing, it’s a knock against you if you’re doing that.

RZ It’s a knock against you. So don’t bother. But what you’re talking about is like, what’s bugging you? You seem out of sorts or whatever it may be. I can tell you, I’ll speak for leaders far and wide, they are gonna be like, oh, let’s go get coffee. Holy moly. You want to hear me tell you? And that, because what you’ve done is you’ve shattered the org chart. You’ve shattered the hierarchy for that moment and you’re just, you’re having a—and then, then you’re right. After that priorities start to mirror each other. You don’t have to be as explicit because they understand where your anxiety is. 

GT Yes.

[26:13]

CL Yeah. I fully agree with this. The thing I’d add to it is it sounds simple, but communicate and be overly open with what you’re doing and how you think what you’re doing ladders up to, you know, the next three rungs on the ladder. Not in the org chart, but on the project. And like how it connects to the roadmap for the thing you’re working on or the next release or whatever it is. A lot of this stuff is learned helplessness. And a lot of where impatience comes from, I think in leaders is why, why are we not making this better on a day-to-day? Or like-ticket to-ticket kind of level? And I think communication—this is not some grand vision of how we should communicate. This is like messages in Slack or Microsoft Teams or whatever you’re using. Like I’m a little stumped on this particular thing, but it doesn’t feel like I should be. A) can someone help or can we readjust something? Or hey, I’m feeling like this deadline is coming up and I want to make sure we’re all thinking about it, even though I’m just an engineer working on a particular track. Getting that communication out there is so important. And it’s like the antidote to getting complacent and again, feeling helpless to the structure around you.

RZ Yeah. I think the world of rigid hierarchies and call me Mr. X because I’m two rungs above you is gone. Right? The work environment is collaborative. But I think inside of that it’s paralyzed people a little bit, in terms of what they can say, how they should say it, what’s overstepping. Am I noisy and whatnot because it’s all so ad hoc now. Between Slack and other tools. But I get excited when the team is confused about a ticket and they ask a question. We actually end up talking more than we thought we were gonna talk. 

GT Yeah.

RZ And that’s not noise. That’s not noise. 

CL Yep.

[28:23]

GT I think this is the ultimate point here about impatience for me. I’ve stopped seeing impatience as a failure in a leader. I see it as an important, good prompt for conversations that need to be had, because something isn’t lined up, whether that’s priorities or there’s a blocker or whatever that is, it is a prompt for conversations. It’s not an opportunity to make people feel bad for not getting things done as quickly as you wanted them to get done. But it is an opportunity to realign and say, I had an expectation here. This is important and it’s not happening. And I want to understand why because we’ve got to fix it. And you go to those why conversations, they are really, really important. People want to understand why they do what they do, right? And I think that just creates a loyalty and a connection and a feeling of meaning and purpose that I think we all want and need. That takes, like Chris said, communication and time to get that across. And it’s tough to get across. I’m still learning how to get it across. But I definitely had these moments where I’m like, oh, I didn’t say the thing that I—I had this implicit context in my head. And I didn’t say it when we talked about it.

[29:32]

RZ Everything you’re talking about is to me very much sort of a style of what I call active leadership. There is reactive leadership, which is the easiest kind, which is like, you’re letting everybody do their thing. And then you get to Monday morning quarterback and nitpick everything after the fact. What you’re actually doing is walking a tightrope because you’re trying to be helpful and collaborative and head off things before things go bad, but you also don’t want to get in their stuff. Right? Cause there’s many teams, there’s many orgs and you’re not gonna come barging into efforts. The agency world is extreme situational awareness required, right? That is the name of the game for this kind of business. So it’s the right instinct. I think it’s a matter of delivery and interface is the other part of it.

GT Do you miss it, Rich? Do you miss the high degree of situational awareness needed for you? You’ve got a whole other set of problems, which we should talk about on another episode. 

CL Another podcast.

RZ Yeah, I do miss it. It’s the same reason—you ever see that guy, he climbs the mountain with like no harness or support? 

CL Oh, the Free Solo guy.

GT No hooks and no harness. Yeah, the Free Solo guy. That dude, ooh—

RZ Yeah, the precariousness, I’m a little addicted to the risk side of it and the precariousness of it. I like navigating really thorny circumstances. And I’m not doing as much of that. I think I will be soon [Gina and Rich laugh.] with the new effort. But you know, it’s a small team right now and we’re getting on our feet, but those days are coming. So yeah.

GT Yeah, for sure. Well, this was a lot of fun. 

RZ This was great. 

GT It was really fun doing a show. The three of us should do a show together more often.

RZ We totally should. I also, I don’t know if you guys have had Paul Ford on—you should have Paul Ford on. He’s really, really good. Really good talker.

CL I’ve heard.

GT I hear that he’s pretty smart. 

RZ He’s really smart, yeah. [Laughs.] 

GT Yeah, we should. That’s a good—I don’t know, I don’t know. It’s tough to get big name guests like that on the show. [Laughs.]

RZ You gotta get on the calendar. [Chris laughs.]

GT I’ll send him a personal email to see if maybe I can impress him. Try to get him on the show. [Laughs.] 

[Outro music fades in, ramps up.]

CL If any of this resonated, and if you’re having challenges and you yourself are impatient and want to move things faster, we can help. Reach out. We build software. We like complex, thorny problems, like Rich was saying. And we’re ready to talk to you: hello@postlight.com. One of our digital strategy team members will reach out and we’d love to chat.

[31:52]

GT Yeah. Please get in touch. We’ll get it done. And we’ll get it done on time. No impatience involved. I’m making big promises here. [Laughs.]

RZ This was a lot of fun guys.

CL Likewise.

GT Thanks all. This was a lot of fun. Let’s get back to work.

CL Alright.