Transcript

Gina Trapani I mean the brain doesn’t stop working on vacation.

Chris LoSacco That’s the thing. The engine is still running, even if you’re not driving the car. [Gina laughs.] 

[Intro music fades in, plays 10 seconds, ramps up.]

GT Hey everyone. Welcome to the Postlight podcast. I’m Gina Trapani. I’m the CEO of Postlight and as always, I’m joined by my partner and the president of Postlight Chris LoSacco. Hey Chris. Welcome back from vacation.

CL Thank you. I feel refreshed.

GT You were on vacation and I missed you so much, but you’re so fresh. You’re like a different person. [Both laugh.] And it’s so good.

CL I came back. I had a new haircut. I had—

GT A new haircut. Fresh legs. Full of ideas. You’re like, I had some vacation ideas and I was like, this is great. I love vacation ideas! [Laughs.] I love it.

CL We should take a minute and talk with our listeners about the importance of taking time away.

[1:03]

GT We should. I agree.

CL It is a wonderful thing. And so I just had two weeks off, which felt like this unbelievable luxury. And when we originally planned it, personally, I had been planning to take a longer trip. And for a lot of reasons, including the state of the world, it didn’t work out that we took a long trip. We did take a few smaller trips, but having two weeks of uninterrupted space from work is amazing. And some really interesting things happen, which I want to talk about with you and share with folks listening. Because it’s very easy to overlook why vacation is valuable. I mean, obviously it’s valuable, like for you as a person to take time away and have good experiences and travel or play video games or whatever it is that you like to do. Having that time for yourself is really important. But it’s also valuable for your professional life to take space from the day-to-day and then come back with a materially different perspective a lot of the time. And I definitely, I mean, I’m coming off of it fresh right now, but I definitely experienced this, that when you get back into things, a very stark example is: I didn’t care about a lot of the normal day-to-day problems that we have to deal with as business leaders. Those were not what concerned me as I was getting back into things. I had a renewed clarity about the big things that were in front of us. What are the more fundamental business challenges that are ahead and how do we go after them? You know, we work in software. I also had bigger thoughts about what makes good software and how do we make sure that we are oriented in that way or continually oriented in that way. Because of course that is what we do, but there are ways that we can keep our eye on the ball. And those are the kinds of things I was thinking about. Not like, how do we handle the IT setup or the small personnel issues that are important, but on a much lower altitude than what you and I need to be really thinking about and prioritizing on a day-to-day basis.

[3:23]

GT I know you, and I know that there’s nothing that you don’t care about. You actually do care about every detail. And like you said, you didn’t care about the day-to-day, but I think you did. I think what’s important about thinking about those big rocks or those big guiding priorities is that the dealing with the smaller things, the day-to-day, you know, course of business, things like fall out of that. Right? So like, you know, it’s funny before you left on vacation and by the way, as Americans, two weeks vacation feels luxurious. It should not be luxurious. That should and can be like a completely normal thing.

CL I feel like I gut-checked with you like six times before I took—should I actually take this time off? And you were like, yes, take it—normalize it.

GT Yes. Well, at one point you said to me, listen at the end of the first week, why don’t we just do a call and, we’ll catch up. We’ll just catch up for like an hour and you could just walk me through what’s going on. And I was like, Chris, just, imagine that phone call. We would do the call, you’d be on vacation. We would do the call. And I would give you a list of like the top five fires or about-to-be fires happening in the day-to-day of the business, which I can handle and which our senior leadership team can handle. If you want to spend time working on your vacation, take that time to take some headspace and like think big and write down some thoughts and like, come back with that. That’ll be more useful to all of us, right? I mean, I think especially as leaders, you never really truly go on vacation and stop thinking about work. I do some of my best thinking when I am not actively hands on keyboard or like in the meeting. It’s when I’ve taken a walk or shower thoughts, or I’m doing something. My poor family, you know, I’m at the playground with my kid and I have an insight or a thought about, oh, this is what should be important to us. And it’s a clarity, you know? And then I try to jot it down and bring it back to work. I just think that that’s so important. You have this vacation glow and I want it to continue, but I know the glow. I think there are some folks who don’t like disconnecting and are just kind of, don’t think about vacation the way you and I think about vacation similarly, in that I know if I go too long without disconnecting from work for a bit, I start to feel it. I start to feel tired. My tank is low. My patience, my flexibility, and my adaptability. Like, it gets a little lower. I can feel when I’m ready to take a break. I think you’re similar and you and I have been able to carve out those times. Okay you go recharge and I’ve got this for a while and that’s worked really well for us. I know not everybody sort of operates in that way. Because you come back with sort of renewed commitment. Like I’m so happy that we do what we do and we get to solve problems together. And these are interesting problems. And like here’s some thoughts that I had. That’s always an exciting moment.

[6:07]

CL It’s a great moment. I feel like this has been—it’s ground that has been well-covered by a lot of different people, but it’s also easy to overlook, which is that when you’re in the daily course of things and you know, you’re jumping from thing to thing to thing. When we were catching up, I think you called it business thrash, which I feel like is the right name for it, which is not unnecessary. They’re all things that need to be talked about or dealt with or discussed. But they take away from the higher level, higher altitude thinking a lot of the time. Sometimes unknowingly, like you don’t even realize it, but because you are spending your time jumping from thing to thing to thing, your brain never has the ability to sort of meander into these other places. And there’s a lot of different ways to get at it. But a key part of it is just stopping, disconnecting from the daily business thrash and saying, I know that I have other people in place who can take care of it. And we should talk about this, I think that’s something that’s important for every leader to be thinking about, which is what is the system that you’re building under you and around you to be able to handle things? Not just so you can take time off, but so that you can be other places and be thinking about other things and be expanding the mandate of your group and going after growth, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. A lot of people, especially newer leaders don’t think about how do I build my support structure because they have been thinking about how do I get into the seat that I’m in?

[7:43]

GT Right. How do I do all the things to make sure that it’s covered? Yeah.

CL And we should be transparent here that this is something that you and I have had to go through too. And we’ve talked a little bit about it on the podcast before. But stepping into true leadership is being able to build a support structure and delegate and give yourself more time to be thinking higher-level, higher-altitude stuff. And that is, you know, you can shortcut it and accelerate it if you step away for a week or two and say, I’m not going to think about the daily business thrash. I’m not actually going to think about most work things. And I’m just going to see what bubbles up and sure enough, at least for me, and I think for you too, things do bubble up. And it’s not because—I didn’t sit down in my backyard and say, I’m going to have a big thought about Postlight’s strategic direction. Just like, you know, I’m outside and enjoying nature and it’s like, oh, I just had a weird thought about what makes good software, let me jot that down so I can bring it back to Gina when I catch up with her on Monday.

[8:47]

GT You know, for me it’s about recentering on the why, right? There’s that switch between the why versus the how. And I think the why is so important. When I say the why, I mean, why do we do what we do? Why do I do what we do? Right? There’s a personal story about like, you know, what it is about work that I absolutely love. And what are the things that I enjoy doing? What are the things I want to get better at doing? What are the things that I feel like I’m good at doing and want to push it even further? There’s that personal why. But then there’s the business why. Why do we exist? What are we trying to be? Where do we want to be in the next few years. And if you get clarity about that, why, and let’s be honest, the why evolves right over time. Because the market changes and our situation changes. And we just went through a big transaction. That why changes over time and the more clarity that you have about it, the more like that compass kind of becomes more fully formed. Right. You and I get aligned on the compass and the direction that it’s pointing and then we can talk to our leadership team about it. And then we talk to the team about it. Because I think ultimately if everyone feels clear on the here’s why we do what we do, then all the other smaller day-to-day decisions become easier to make. Because you’re like this either gets us closer to where we’re going or it doesn’t, right? I think it’s the most critical work that you can do. And I think vacation’s a really good way to do it, but let’s just be honest. Vacation happens, I don’t know, every few months or something. I think there’s also just like daily practices that at least for me as a leader have been really important to try to build in some of that awareness and that framing around what’s going on and how to handle it that requires kind of stepping back a little bit.

CL This is a leading question because I know where you’re going to go, but can you talk about, what’s a practice that you use to recenter day-to-day?

GT I heard this really great bit of advice. It was a CEO who said, my best piece of leadership advice for anyone leading a group or a team is to not let others set your agenda for the day. Right? So there are lots of ways for others to set your agenda, right? Like the emails are coming in, the Slack notifications, the calendar invites, right? And he said, if you wake up in the morning and the first thing you do is go to your email inbox, which is essentially a list of tasks that somebody else has assigned to you [laughs] and you start by reacting to those tasks, you’ve kind of lost, right? You have to set your agenda for the day. So one of my practices, I’m not saying this is right for everybody, but one of my practices is I start the day from the task list that I set yesterday. I look at it and say, what here still needs to be done and what is still useful? What are the meetings that I have today? And are there any that I don’t need to be in? Are there any meetings or any issues that I should be meeting and I’m not right? So I set my tasks and events for the day before I look at any kind of inputs from others. Because I want to set my agenda because I know that I get sort of carried away in reactivity if I log into Slack or if I look at those red badges, or if I look at that inbox count, I’m going to lose myself. And I’m going to feel like I lose my direction for the day. So another thing I do is I block time in the beginning of the day in my calendar to do that work, to do that sort of centering work and setting my agenda for the day and prepping for my meetings and putting down my tasks and being like, here’s what I’m going to do today. Because I want to proactively set how I’m spending my time and attention. Right? Because I mean, ultimately your time and your attention, it’s the most precious and finite resource that you have. And if you spend it the wrong way—when I say the wrong way, if you spend it on things that don’t move your team forward, that to me is failure, right? Like that’s the biggest risk to the business and to the team, right?

CL Yeah. But it’s hard. I mean, the reality is there’s a gravity and a pull. When you think about, I mean, we’re Slack-based culture at Postlight—all the activity is happening in Slack. I would say it’s 98% slack, 2% email and other.

[12:50]

GT For internal.

CL For internal. And once you enter that Slack vortex, it’s not just the red badges. It’s the feeling that like if I were to project it physically, it’s like, you’re in an office and there are all these conversations happening in all these different rooms, except you could hear all of them and you can sort of jump from conversation to conversation, but you don’t have to walk from room to room. You’re clicking a mouse, you’re not moving. And so it is incredibly easy and thus hard to resist to just go and walk in all the rooms and say, what’s going on here and how do I help? And inevitably, there are things that need your attention or that you feel like you want to course-correct or adjust or contribute to or congratulate—there’s all of these attention grabbers that are happening in all these different channels. And once you step in, it is very hard to step back out. The same dynamics are at play that exist in social media or any other connection between humans. I also block my calendar in the morning if I can and say, you know, I want to save those morning hours to get my head on straight and to think about what my priorities are before I’m thinking about what everybody else’s priorities are. I’m not a hundred percent successful at it. It is very common for me to wake up and come downstairs with my coffee and check Slack and be like, oh, I gotta dive into that. And you’re off on the wrong foot already. What do they say about meditating? I don’t meditate. I should. But part of the thing is like, they call it a practice because you gotta keep coming back to it. Like day after day.

[14:31]

GT Yes, it’s a practice—that’s right. You don’t achieve it. That’s exactly right. And I don’t always get it right either to be totally honest. And there’s another point here that I want to make though. And something that I definitely have struggled with and gone back and forth as a leader, because as a leader, I also want to be responsive. And because I am responsible, right? I am responsible to our clients. I am responsible to our team. And so being responsible means that I am obligated to respond. So if I’m blocking something or if someone has sent me a message, I want to respond to that message within a reasonable amount of time. I want my team and my clients to understand that I’m here for them. But you know, as much as I can, I want to switch into response mode and do that in a time that I’ve determined sort of once I’ve gotten my own kind of thoughts about the lingering things that happened yesterday or the things I thought about over the weekend and I want to prioritize those for. So responsiveness is something that I think is important and I value as a leader. And I don’t want my team to feel like I’m not available. Right? It’s a balance. But I think you can have both. I think you can set your own agenda and also be responsive if you protect yourself and protect that reflection time.

[15:38]

CL I agree. And I would pause it and maybe this is not true, but I think your responses are going to be better if you take that moment in the beginning. You are orienting yourself. You are thinking about where you are headed. And then what flows from that is going to be naturally sort of more aligned with where you’re going. This is kind of like, I don’t know if there’s actually a deep connection here, but it feels to me like if you’re thinking about your north star and then you go to respond to a message that is about something happening day-to-day, in some small way, there’s going to be a stronger connection to that overall vision. Because you’ve just, you’ve just taken the moment to like point yourself in the right direction.

[16:19]

GT That’s absolutely right. One of the important things that I have realized and have to realize over and over again is that things happen, events happen. We ship something great. A client is upset. There’s a personal issue. There is a disagreement or a misalignment. These things happen, right? They are neither good things or bad things. They’re just things that happened. The way that you interpret those things, the story that you tell yourself about that thing that happened and the story that you tell your team and your org about that thing that happened is where the good or bad of the judgment comes in. Right? So what’s so important is the stories that we tell ourselves and each other and our team about what is happening in our business, right? When challenges and hardships happen, if your tank is low and you’re responding and you’re afraid and you’re stressed and you immediately are like, this is terrible. We are screwed. Like if you go directly to that place, that is going to become true, right? Like, I mean, one of my favorite maxims is it’s never as good or bad as you think.

[17:20]

CL As you think it is—yes.

GT Exactly. You know, a lot of our job, it’s actually a very surprising amount of our job as leaders is interpreting the events and the factors and the variables and the thing that this person said, the thing that that person said and whose interests. And coming up with the narrative and the story about what is happening and what we are going to do about it and how it aligns with our values and what we’re trying to do here. Like telling that story, coming up with that story is so much a part of our jobs. And for me, that’s something that I have to do. Like my internal narrative is so big. So, while you are on vacation, I’m a writer. I think by writing, I journal, I take copious notes. Part of it is that my memory is terrible, so it just helps me remember things. But the other part is that it really helps me think through things. So while you are on vacation, I took pretty copious notes on a daily basis. I think I wrote like 15 pages or something, just like things that had happened and things that we should do, thoughts that had occurred to me. And it’s so funny because as I read back, I could see myself overreacting or misinterpreting things in the moment, like feeling just like, oh, this is terrible. And we really gotta figure this out. And you know, we’ve got a problem here. Like in some cases, some negative takes and even just looking back at my notes after a couple of business days had passed, I’d be like, wow, I would laugh because I’d be like, Chris is going to read this and he’s going to chuckle probably and go like, we’re fine. It’s all fine. Let’s talk it through. And we’ll find a path forward. So I’m interested to know. And I was a little embarrassed. I called it my Live Journal. I was like, Chris, I wrote you a long Live Journal. Let’s go through this when you get back. And so I’m curious to hear what your experience of reading that from being far and away was. I detailed lots of thrash, day-to-day thrash for like two weeks for you.

[19:03]

CL Oh my God. I have so many thoughts. First of all, I just want to make sure it’s clear to people listening. Yeah. This quote unquote Live Journal, which was a Google doc, not actual Live Journal. First of all, thank you for doing it because it is amazing.

GT I did it as much for me as for you, honestly.

CL I mean, I asked your permission to do this, but I took Slack bankruptcy. Again, our culture, almost all the communication happens in Slack. I did not check Slack once during vacation. That’s an important communication habit for me. Because I know that if I go in and I’m like, well, let me just check on this, like one little thing, boom. Once the door’s open, that’s it, the door’s open. The flood starts pouring through, I’m host. So I did not check Slack at all. When I came back, my sidebar was lit up like a Christmas tree. Like there was a million and a half things that I could have gone to read. And I am not ashamed to say, like in the past I would go through and read every single message when I would get back from a week or a couple of days off.

GT It would take it like a couple days to dig through it all. Yeah. [Laughs.]

CL I mean, it’s a mini project to just catch up on all the chat that’s happened. But this time I said, I’m not doing that. You had done this amazing job of writing down, from your perspective, what were the things that were important that mattered over the two weeks that I was out. And so that’s what I used. And I marked all those read on Slack and it was very freeing. I would recommend that everybody do that when they take their time off. But it’s so funny, my experience of reading this was exactly what you described, sort of processing yourself. I could see that happening in the writing. It’s this beautiful thing of coming back with perspective because I was reading this and there are some things that also clearly jumped out to me and it was like, yes, this is a thorny problem that we need to work through. And it’s not going to be an easy or straightforward to solve. This is like, we probably have to have a set of conversations amongst us and with a few other people and think about, how do we make a good, thoughtful decision here? And that’s good. Like, it’s good when those kinds of problems come up and you can say, oh, this is something where I should clearly be spending my time. It’s impactful as a leader. This is where I want to go make a good, smart, impactful decision. But then there were other things and some of them, I hope you don’t mind me calling you out. It was like a long bit of writing. It was like you clearly had a lot of thoughts and emotions and you were processing. And I came back and I read it and I was like, we don’t have time for this.

[21:30]

GT No, none of this matters. This just doesn’t matter. This just isn’t important. This weird meeting on the scale of all the things that we’re dealing with, just doesn’t matter. This is not important. And we don’t need to deal with this. It’s a beautiful thing. That’s a beautiful insight.

CL This is the point that we were talking about at the beginning. Sometimes it’s hard to see that. I’ll speak for myself. Like sometimes I’m in the day-to-day and I get to the end of the day and maybe I’m feeling kind of dejected. And man, that was hard. Like we had a bunch of meetings and the vibe was often one of them. And we were like going around in circles on the other one. And it was really tough and I’m complaining to my wife over dinner and it’s like—but then if you can step out of it for a second through maybe a daily practice or something, very often, you’ll realize that at least some of those things are just not worth your time. They’re not worth your—and it’s not just time. They’re not worth your stress.

GT Mental energy. Exactly.

[22:22]

CL You know, in this specific example that I’m thinking of from your writeup, like it also just doesn’t have a huge impact on our business period. It wouldn’t move the needle one way or the other. Right? It doesn’t really affect if we’re making more money or not, or producing better software, or making our team happier or more frustrated. Like it just wasn’t that impactful. So why are we going to spend more time or energy on it? We shouldn’t. I want to go back to something you said, which is like the stories we tell ourselves, because it really resonated with me. I have been listening to a lot of audiobooks this year. I listened to do, you know, Yuval Noah Harari’s book Homo Deus?

GT No, I haven’t read that one.

[23:01]

CL It’s like the sequel to Sapiens. Sapiens is like the history of humankind. Homo Deus is a prediction for the future of humankind. It’s a fantastic book. I really liked it. I mean, I loved Sapiens. I also liked this book. It was a lot of really interesting ideas that were presented. But one of the things he talks about in the book is the difference between the experiencing self and the narrating self. And they don’t always agree. And he tells this fascinating story about an experiment that was done where they’d have a subject, like put their hand in cold water for 30 seconds. And then they would rate the experience. And then they had a different subject or maybe the same subject, put their hand in cold water for 45 seconds. The first 30 was just cold. But then the last 15, the water warmed up by a couple of degrees. And what they found was that even though the experiencing self, it is objectively better to have the 30-second experience because your hand is in cold water for less time, you know, you are having less discomfort, if you think of it that way. But the narrating self would over index on how the experiment ended. So the fact that the water warmed up a little bit, they left it feeling like, oh, well that wasn’t that bad. Like it was hard at the beginning—

[24:25]

GT Recency bias!

CL There’s recency bias. Exactly. You know, his point in the book, or at least what I took away from it, is the narrating self is way more important because the narrating self is the one who’s piecing together these slices of experience and drawing out a narrative, a story that we ultimately believe in. And in many times, you know, commit to memory. Like this is the thing that we took away from this experience. So it’s the narrating self that’s really got control so to speak over how we feel about an experience or a set of events that happen. And it’s so funny because just like you were saying before, we’ve all worked with the person who has one bad thing happen and it’s the worst possible thing. And it’s the end of the world that we have to respond right away. And they spin up all kinds of like anxiety around them. Or when something good happens, it’s like the best possible thing. And we need to celebrate X, Y, and Z. And, you know, everyone should be shouting from the rafters. The narrating self is like outta whack. It’s funny to think about it from a business-leadership perspective where a leader can bring tremendous value by sort of being the meta narrator.

GT That narrator. Yes.

CL Exactly. For how the team is doing, how the group is doing, how the business is doing and saying, I’m actually going to bring a little bit of judgment and perspective here so that I’m trying to tie together each of these individual experiences into a larger cohesive whole. So I just thought that was a really interesting parallel.

[26:01]

GT Sapiens has been on my to-read list for a while so I need to read both of these, but it’s so true. One of the aspects of the stories that we tell ourselves, and we tell our teams that I think is super powerful. You and I have talked about this podcast. I think Glennon Doyle has talked about this on her podcast. This idea of like, normalizing—things go wrong and things go right. But we always as humans index on the things that go wrong, but this idea of being like, this is totally normal, this kind of thing happens in our line of business, this kind of thing happens in projects, in client relationships, with vendors all the time. It’s totally normal. This is just regular course of business stuff. And here’s how we could approach it. Right. Because I think that some of the catastrophizing and the, oh my God, the whole world’s on fire comes from just like this unexpected thing happened. It went wrong. I feel terrible about it. And now like, you know, I don’t know what to do. There’s just, no, do we have a process? We don’t have a process. Oh my God. You know, like it just amps up enough. Right?I mean, a very powerful way to go back to that things are never as bad as you think that they are, is to say like, this is completely normal and not that unexpected. And not that surprising. Just that alone. I think I’ve seen shoulders literally drop on meetings. Like I’m calmer now. Oh, this is normal. This has happened before. Like this isn’t an extraordinary, terribly extraordinarily terrible circumstance. So that normalizing of hard things, which I think is the thing that Glennon talks about all the time—hard things, completely normal. And the idea is that we solve them. There are some weeks and you know, I’m free to admit this. There are some weeks where I’m just like, ah, it’s just one problem after another. And are we ever going to have a calm day? And it’s never just easy, smooth sailing. Like I can get into that narrative a little bit. Like when are we just going to have a calm week? It took me time to realize things not being calm is completely normal. And that’s okay because I really like solving problems. Like we solve problems in our business, right? We solve problems for our team. We solve problems for our clients. Problems are the work and it’s honestly kind of fun work. I enjoy solving business problems. This is why I do what I do. And so when I get into this mode where I’m like, couldn’t we just have a few days without a problem? That’s when I know that my tank is low and I need to take a break and recharge a little bit. Like, because the solving of the problems that is the work. I shared this with you when you got back from vacation. I mean, the other part of that for me is I enjoy solving business problems and I enjoy solving business problems with people who I like and trust that part of the work for me. Like, I don’t think I could ever be a solo business owner. Like I would just be alone in a room with my ideas, telling myself the most catastrophic stories. I really like working with you and working with our senior leadership team, because that is the most fulfilling and satisfying thing in the world where you’re like, okay, we’ve got this problem in front of us. Here’s the shape of it. Here’s what we think the problem is. Here’s the gap between what we think it should be and what it is like, how do we move it forward? Like, that’s fun. Like I enjoy doing that. And so every day now I’m sort of like, I enjoy solving business problems. Like, bring ’em on, let’s do it together. And also helping others solve problems for themselves. So they don’t have to come to me and say, what should we do here? You know? It’s like, let’s equip each other with the tools we need to understand like this is normal and completely solvable. Let’s get in there and do it together in a calm way, because this is just what the work is. And the work is good.

CL Absolutely. Absolutely. We can end it there. That was good.

[29:30]

GT [Laughs.] Great.

CL There was one more point that I wanted to make, and maybe I’ll just plant this seed with our listeners too, which is it’s important that everybody feel like they have this option to take time away. It’s critical for leaders, like we’ve talked about, but it’s also critical that leaders set an example for the rest of their teams, the rest of their group, the rest of their company. And I’ve heard it so many times. And I know you have too—where people say, you know, I would love to take a week off, but I just can’t. I can’t because, there’s a project that has a deadline, I don’t have a backfill for my team. I mean the list—

GT My team is depending on me, my client can’t let me go, all those things, right?

[30:12]

CL I’ll be letting people down. You can always come up with a reason why you can’t take time off. And I think it is imperative that leaders make it okay. That you should, and you kind of must take time off. 

[Outro music fades in, ramps up.] 

CL And if you feel like you can’t, that is a problem to be solved. You need to work on how do you—going back to what I was saying before—set up a support structure, or shuffle things around, or adjust your responsibility set so that it doesn’t have to be a two-week or three-week vacation. It could be a two or three day. It could be a long weekend. But you need to be able to take time away. And I would encourage all leaders to think about, if you hear people say, well, I just can’t take time off. That’s a problem. And you need to figure out how to sort that out.

[31:01]

GT Yeah. And those people are not going to do their best work or show up aligned with the why. It’s true.

CL Exactly. Aligned with the why. Yeah.

GT I’m so glad you’re back for vacation. I really enjoy solving problems with you, Chris. I’m so glad you’re back. Also, if you’ve got problems you’d like to solve, you should reach out to Postlight. We are a digital strategy, design and engineering firm. We’re based in New York City. And we love to hear from you. We read every single email that comes to us. Hello@postlight.com. Please get in touch. And thanks for listening.

CL Thanks, Gina. This was fun. We’ll do it again soon.

GT Have a great rest of the day.