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The phrase “change is hard” may seem like a cliche, but it’s also true. This week Chris and Gina discuss how to manage change as Postlight navigates some changes of its own. As a leader, how much do you share with your team? Can you make it easier for them? How do you navigate people’s differing relationships with change? Chris and Gina share what they’re learning as they lead through change.


Gina Trapani: Digital transformation experts acknowledge that…

Chris LoSacco and Gina Trapani: Change is hard.

Chris: (Laughing) Well…

Gina: (Laughing) Insights from your partners at Postlight.

Chris: Oh my God.

Gina: (Laughs) Sorry.


Gina: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Postlight podcast. I’m Gina Trapani, I am the CEO of Postlight and as always, I’m joined by my partner and the president of Postlight, Chris LoSacco. Hey, Chris.

Chris: Hey, Gina.

Gina: How’s it going?

Chris: Good. Glad to be back on the show. 

Gina: Love being on the show.

Chris: Talkin’ about change.

Gina: Change.

Chris: (Laughs) 

Gina: You know what it’s like when you start… when cliches just start coming out of your mouth? Like, “Change is hard.”

(Both laugh)

Gina: “People hate change.” Like… and I found myself, we were standing in the elevator bay and I found myself saying that to you, and I was like “This is the least insightful thing that has ever come out of my mouth,” and yet… (Laughs) 

Chris: And yet… Here’s the thing. Cliches are cliches because a lot of the time they’re true.

Gina: They’re true! They’re true.

Chris: It’s especially salient because we are feeling this on several levels right now. We ourselves are going through a lot of change…

Gina: Yes.

Chris: Our parent organization is going through a lot of change, our clients are going through a lot of change. Like, there are a lot of angles here…

Gina: There really, really are.

Chris: …that apply to our current state of being right now.

Gina: Because the other cliche is that the only constant…

Both: …is change.

Gina: (Laughs) And that is also a cliche…

Chris: Yep.

Gina: …because it is true.

Chris: Yep.

Gina: Especially in our business. Right? Like, our business is to build software that changes the way that people get things done. If we do our job well, for the better! Right?

Chris: Yep, that’s right.

Gina: Change management and creating change, and like, we’ve all seen the internet come into being, and software and computers and personal computing come into being, and like absolutely change the world very, very rapidly. We saw it happen even more rapidly during the pandemic when we all just, you know…

Chris: Oh yeah.

Gina: …quarantined at home. Culture and society and the world at large changes when, you know, technology gets involved. Right? So there’s that change. We deal with that change every day, and every engagement with our clients.

Chris: And this is… it’s a beautiful thing, right?, about building software, is that the pace of change can be a lot faster. If you’re building a building and you decide “Oh, we need to change the position of the elevator or make the stairs go over here,” it’s like, you gotta break concrete and re-lay foundations, and it’s much more impactful when you talk about change. Software, it’s malleable and you can go in there and adjust on a dime, and, like… One of the reasons why we saw such dramatic improvements during the pandemic is because software raced to catch up to our new ways of working.

Gina: That’s right.

Chris: And we got all these new, you know, virtual working platforms and different patterns of doing things, and it was all because software enables us to change very quickly. And that’s great! But it also, you know, the adage holds. Change is hard. And so just because you can rapidly create something does not mean that you can rapidly adopt it. And, you know, we see it today, and we see it all the time with the organizations that we work with, and we see it ourselves. And we see it ourselves not just in the realm of software but in the organizational change that we are in the process of going through post-acquisition.

Gina: Yeah. I mean, we’re going to be a little bit vague, and we actually have some really exciting things coming up for Postlight which we are going to talk about in future episodes, but we’re not at the announcement phase yet, we are in the thick of planning it and managing it and talking about it and setting expectations about it, and… I think that there’s all the, just, like, industry-wide change happening for us, right? Like, technology industry-wide. Particularly because, you know… you looked at 2020 and 2021, and there was the Great Resignation and this race to hire talent, and this competition to, like, you know… who can give and create the best and most flexible workplace that would attract people, and it was this, you know, huge boom for so many businesses, including our business. Right? And then the market kinda changed. And that growth, it turned out, that a lot of companies bet was going to be just the new trajectory that we were on turned out to be a bit of a bubble, right? And we see, in the past…

Chris: Well, for tech especially.

Gina: In tech especially, right? We’ve seen in the past 9 months or so, the bubble kind of burst and now we’re seeing things like layoffs, and an unstable market, and organizations getting acquired and moved around and re-orged…

Chris: Yeah. When you log in to LinkedIn, you know that little upper-right, you know, “Here are the top stories”? It’s…

Gina: It’s a bloodbath.

Chris: Oh, it’s a bloodbath.

Gina: Yes.

Chris: Every single day it’s like, “Here are the latest…” I mean, literally, there’s a headline, “Here are the latest layoffs. Catch up on the summary.” And then you scroll down, and it’s a bulleted list of like 40 companies that have laid people off in the past 24 to 48 hours. It is wild.

Gina: And the message is always the same. “We forecast our business against a particular set of conditions, those conditions are not… you know, our current conditions are not those conditions, and we have to make adjustments,” right?

Chris: Right. That’s right.

Gina: The situation changed. And this is… this is hard. Like, it’s tough psychologically and it’s a huge 180 from where we were even a year or two ago.

Chris: Yes.

Gina: I think it’s just a lot, it’s a lot for folks to internalize and figure out how to deal with, and how to handle, and what does it mean for them? Then you’ve got ChatGPT about to take my job…

Chris: (Laughs) Oh my God.

Gina: I’m a writer and a storyteller and a coder, and I got… the robots are gonna make me obsolete! (Laughs) 

Chris: Okay. Hold on, hold on.

Gina: Okay. I just… I just took this to a whole other episode of the Postlight podcast.

Chris: (Laughs) Yes.

Gina: (Laughs) 

Chris: I wanna… I wanna talk to you about how to manage change. Because we’ve been doing some of this, and I think… I’m gonna be totally honest with our listeners. Like, some things I think we do well, and other things I think we could do better. And we’ve definitely made some good choices and some bad choices. Specifically, I think we should talk about communications strategies.

Gina: Mhm.

Chris: There are these complex questions when you are talking to a group of many human beings. Right? If you know, as a leader, that change is coming, how much do you share about that change? How much do you hold back and wait until all of the answers are… all of the questions are answered before you share something? How much do you say “This is coming but we only know 40% of it and so we’re not going to be able to answer the questions?”

Gina: Mhm.

Chris: And we’ve had to navigate through some of this. And I think in general, the approach that we’ve taken is, we’ve tried to be pretty open. And transparent.

Gina: Yeah.

Chris: And tell people “Here’s what we see on the horizon. It’s fuzzy, because we’re still, like, you know, a hundred miles away. 

Gina: Yeah.

Chris: And so we can maybe start to see, like, some vague outlines of things. But it’s not, it’s not clear yet. And we get to, you know, 10 miles away or 5 miles away, we’re gonna start to, you know, share more. But the picture is not in focus yet, and so we’re sharing a pixelated version of where we think we’re going.

Gina: Yes.

Chris: And as the resolution comes into, like, clarity, then we’re going to pass that along to the rest of everybody else. But that is hard. And I empathize with hearing that message and feeling like, “Okay, but what does that really mean?”

Gina: What does that really mean? What does that mean for me? What does that mean for my team? What does that mean for the future? What… yeah. It can lead to more questions. So I should say, dear listener, we are not out the other end and like “Here are our insights, this is definitely how you should do it.”

Chris: We’re in the thick of it.

Gina: Like, we are in the thick of this, and I think that we’ve done some things well and some things not well. I still really believe that, like, the information that you have, even if it’s low-res, sooner to your adult professional team and company is better than waiting and holding until, you know, it’s higher-res and you have more details to just… to do the whole data dump. Like, I think… I think giving people more information sooner…

Chris: Right.

Gina: Brene Brown has this saying, “Clear is kind.” You and I have changed it to “clarity is kindness.” Like, let’s just give people clarity, even when the clarity is, we don’t know yet all the details, but here’s directionally where we’re going.

Chris: And we’ve had this debate, like… that is also not clarity. We should just recognize that.

Gina: Right. Right.

Chris: Right? The clarity being, we don’t know yet. I fully agree with you, to be clear, that we’ve taken the approach, let’s share more, let’s share…

Gina: More sooner.

Chris: More sooner. Even if it’s not the full picture. But the truth is, it’s not clarity. 

Gina: Right.

Chris: And really getting to clarity is what people want, it’s what we want too. But that… you know, that sort of natural… what’s the word? Like, you… Dissatisfaction. When you get, like, an incomplete picture. But we’ve got a great team. We’ve got a great set of people who, I think, we trust to understand that, like… yes, we don’t have all the answers, but we are advocating for the best possible position in a lot of different areas.

Gina: Right.

Chris: And when we find things out we’re gonna share those things, y’know?

Gina: Part of the advantage of sharing, you know, in broad strokes what you know, even though the details are still getting worked out, is that I don’t presume that I know all the details, or that I have all the questions to even get answers to. So part of it is, like, then you get questions… you get a lot of questions. In fact, we had a really interesting… there was a  meeting with our senior leadership team where we sort of sketched out, “Okay. We’re gonna go through this organizational change, here’s what we have so far.” And someone said “This isn’t any information. Like, the whole… all… you know, devil’s in the details, and you don’t have any details here.” Like, basically “Why are you sharing this with us? This isn’t any information. You need to go a level deeper before you tell us.”

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: And we said, “Hey, we’re treating you like our senior leaders who are our partners, and we wanted you to know where we are. And we’re getting down to that next level of detail, but we wanted you to know because we want you… we wanted to plant the seed with you, we want you to get started thinking about it, we want you to start asking us questions about things that are important to you and things that may… the context that you have that we don’t fully have.”

Chris: Yes.

Gina: Like… and everyone in the room was like, “Oh. Okay, yeah. That makes sense.” You know, “I’m glad to be sort of in,” right? Because if you wait until you have all the details and then you give people “Okay, this is what was decided…”

Chris: “It’s all done.”

Gina: There’s a feeling of, like, “Wait, why wouldn’t we have talked about this.” (Laughs) 

Chris: Right.

Gina: Like, when was this decided? Why wasn’t I involved? Right? But either way, there’s some kind of dissatisfaction. Like, it’s… change is just… it’s just hard. (Laughs) 

Chris: It’s just hard.

Gina: No matter how you, like, slice it.

Chris: I also think that people’s relationship to change… everybody’s got their own personal history, right? Everyone’s lived a very different life, their own life. And so…

Gina: Yes.

Chris: When confronted with change, some people see it as “Oh my God, I like the way things are, and I’m settled in my routines and I don’t want, like, why are you mixing things up right now?”

Gina: Why are you upsetting the apple cart? Everything’s going great, right?

Chris: Exactly. Why are you messing everything up?

Gina: Right. I want to keep doing this job. (Laughs) 

Chris: And other people are like, “Oh, this is interesting. This is an opportunity. This is a way that I can grow,” right? Growth happens when you are uncomfortable, and you’re in that zone where you’re like “I don’t have the full picture yet, and I’m going to learn.”

Gina: Right.

Chris: “I’m going to figure out how to potentially, like, go in this different direction and maybe it’s not the direction I thought I was going in, but I’m going to embrace it.” And you see it play out, like, each person’s individual psychology to some extent determines how they’re going to bring their own ideas to a set of organization-wide changes.

Gina: Yes.

Chris: It’s very interesting.

Gina: It is. It is. I mean, I really appreciate the leaders that stepped forward at that moment and say, “Wow, this is exciting, this is a lot, I don’t know what this means but this seems like an opportunity because we’ve got a couple of things that are broken, or that work at this scale but may not work at that scale…”

Chris: Right.

Gina: “Let’s take this opportunity…” Or like, “Here’s my recommendation,” you know? Like, “Here’s what we… here’s something that we can do.”

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: Like, “There are a couple broken things over here, let’s take this opportunity to fix them” right? Because new people are going to be working together in new ways. Like, seeing it as an opportunity…. of course, like, I appreciate that, right? Because, you know, we all want to sort of be pulling together and seeing that leadership, of like… ‘cause then you have the folks that are like, “Here are all the reasons why this is going to go bad and wrong.”

Chris: Right.

Gina: (Laughs)

Chris: Let’s get… let me give you the list of all the problems that are ahead. (Laughs) 

Gina: By the same token, it’s really important to have those people who flag risks and say “Hey, we should be careful about this,” right? Because this could go wrong. Right? There’s a thin line between raising and mitigating risk, and saying “This is all wrong and bad and here are all the reasons why this is going to go terribly.” Like, “I expect this to go terribly.”

Chris: That is a thin but very important line. Right?

Gina: Very important.

Chris: It reminds me of how we run our client projects, right? We say, when we check in on risk, which we do all the time…

Gina: Yep.

Chris: We encourage and require of our teams that when they identify risks, they bring a proposed mitigation with the risk. To not just say “Here’s the thing that’s gonna go wrong, I just want to let you know that it’s gonna go wrong.” That’s not enough. You have to think about, what are the ways that we can increase our chances of hedging against that risk and having success on the project? And the same thing applies, the same approach applies when you’re thinking about change, whether it’s organizational change or process change or whatever the case may be. You have to think about, here are the ways the train can go off the tracks, and here are the different things we can do to give ourselves the best possibility of keeping the train on the tracks.

Gina: Right.

Chris: And the best leaders do that. And this is what we are thinking through right now, you and me.

Gina: Yes.

Chris: We are saying, “How do we make sure…” There are some things that feel like, uh-oh, that’s gonna knock us off balance. How do we make sure that we try to keep those things at bay so that we can continue down the path that we think we’re on, that we intend to be on? And you won’t get everything right, but that’s a far better way to come at these things than “These are all the problems, just so you know.”

Gina: Absolutely. Something that I have been, you know, sort of learning on the fly as we’ve been going through this process is that when there are questions about how something is gonna go and the answer is “We don’t know yet,” the things that help to define is, “Who’s the decisionmaker? How can I influence them?”

Chris: Mhm.

Gina: “And by when do we think we will have a call.”

Chris: Oh yeah.

Gina: Even if we don’t have the answer, to have… to give someone a timeline, and to say “These are the folks who are gonna make this decision…” And this is confusing to people, ‘cause often… like, in our situation there’s a whole new set of decisionmakers who we interact with a whole lot, but maybe our team hasn’t.

Chris: Right.

Gina: Right? And so there’s just getting clear in their head, like, “Wait, who’s responsible for this now? Who makes the call?” That… it took me longer than it should have for me to realize that that… how important that was. Timeline and avenues for advocacy and influence. (Laughs) 

Chris: Yes. A hundred percent. Again, if I could go back and do some things over, I would say we should have learned more from what we do so well developing software products. (Laughs) And applied them to these other areas of change. Because the timeline is critical.

Gina: Yeah.

Chris: And setting the expectation about what happens when, even if the what is not totally clear. “Here’s when a decision will be made. Here’s when we will have clarity. Here’s when this thing will take effect.” Right? Or “Here’s when the thing will be defined, even if we don’t know what the definition is. Here’s how the discovery phase is going to go, and here’s how the discovery phase wraps up.” Right? Just like you would do in a software product, you can do that for a process improvement, you can do that for an organizational change, you can do that for a brand discussion. Like, these same kind of things apply. I mean, how many times do we say, the name of the game is setting expectations.

Gina: Setting and managing expectations. For sure. One of the changes that Postlight is going through is that we’re getting integrated, like we’re going to be starting to use NTT Data’s systems at some point this year.

Chris: Right.

Gina: And so that’s been something that we knew was kind of on the horizon. And there were tons of questions about that. Like, how are we gonna cut up our payroll? And what are comp and benefits going to look like? And what’s our finance systems going to look like? Tons of questions. And everybody could see this date on the horizon, and the closest, you know, closer that we got, this is months out, but still. The closer that we get to it, the more the questions come up. And we… and NTT Data, I mean, this is part of the reason that we wanted to kind of join the family. They have done dozens, maybe hundreds of acquisitions. So they have just… they have seen everything. They have done this a million times. And most people who we interact with at NTT Data came in through some acquisition in the past, either in the near past or the far past. Right? So they sat us down and said “Okay, we’re gonna walk you through the integration process.” And they brought up this slide, and it had this timeline on it. And it’s like, “On this date, we will have finished discovery. On this date, we will have finished, you know, title mapping. On this date, we will have finished the…” Like, and then, “On this date is the Go Live date. After this is hypercare. Support and…” I was looking at this slide and I just… I said this aloud. My temperature just came down like 10… I was like, “Oh.” (Laughs) 

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: This is, we’re just running a process here. And it was totally cool, it wasn’t emotional, it wasn’t… it was just totally, “We are just running a process. We are on an assembly line, and we’re gonna go through this process…” And they said to us, “Every acquisition, every company is different. We’re gonna learn some things.”

Chris: Right.

Gina: We have learned a lot, and you know what? We’re gonna learn something with Postlight, so just be ready for that. Help us learn together so that the next company that we integrate, we will be able to take those lessons forward. Like, we’re in this together, so it’s not gonna go completely seamlessly. Prepare for that.”

Chris: Yep.

Gina: “But also, this is what we’ve learned and this is how we’re gonna run this.” And I was like, I felt so much better. (Laughs) 

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: I was like, “Oh! Okay. I know exactly what’s happening and when it’s happening and this is great. I’m in good hands.” Right? And I was like, this is an excellent lesson. This is what I want to do. I want my clients to feel this way when I sit them down and say “This is what we’re doing.”

Chris: That’s exactly it! It gave us a framework to orient ourselves, and to think through “Okay, here’s how this is going to unfold, and when things are going to… when certain tripwires are gonna hit, and when we’re gonna land in a certain place.” And it just… it does, it lets you exhale. Like, oh, okay, we have…

Gina: We’re in good hands. We are safe, we are secure. We are running a process. 

Chris: We’re running a process. We have some boundaries around this thing. Because it feels so… for integrating and acquisitions, certainly, like it feels like a very big thing. There are so many things to… like, so many boxes to check. So many different areas to explore. And knowing that you’ve got the landscape covered, that by itself is a relief. But you know, the same thing applies to making a big organizational change internally, right? Or making a big process improvement, or rolling out a big software platform. Like, all the same fears are there.

Gina: Yes.

Chris: And the way to counteract the fears is to say, we’re going to put some expectation… we’re gonna set expectations. We’re gonna put some things in place so that you know, “Here are the tentpole dates, checkpoints, whatever, that you can expect to hit as you go forward.”

Gina: That’s right. “Here’s what you can expect, here’s what we know, here’s how we do this. You are in good hands.” It builds trust, it builds credibility. It calms people down, right?

Chris: Right.

Gina: And it’s like “Okay, I’m gonna keep doing my job and I’m gonna participate in this and check up on this, and I see the path that we’re on.” That’s huge. And it’s hard to draw a path to an end state that is not entirely clear yet. (Laughs) 

Chris: That’s the thing.

Gina: That’s hard. That’s hard. But you draw the, you know, the next mile. Or five miles, right?

Chris: Yes.

Gina: And you say, “This is what’s gonna happen next.”

Chris: And you acknowledge that we’re gonna keep drawing. 

Gina: Right.

Chris: And as things get drawn, we’re gonna talk about them.

Gina: Right. It’s Harold and the Purple Crayon. Is that the book? (Laughs) 

Chris: Yeah! 

Gina: He draws his world and he gets in the boat and he goes sailing…

Chris: Exactly.

Gina: That’s right, that’s right. It feels like that.

Chris: There’s a parallel here, and I know I keep coming back to the client work. But I think another reason why change is hard is because people get good at what the current state is.

Gina: Yes. Like, “I’ve just figured this game out! I got this! Don’t change the game on me!” 

Chris: Don’t change the game on me. 

Gina: (Laughs) Yeah.

Chris: And there’s that… again, a lot of the same lessons apply. Right? Because you have to think about not just sort of espousing the virtues of this new… of the new way. But also… this is me being a little cheesy, but honoring the old way and understanding that it’s gonna be, there needs to be a process and an education that happens to move someone along. Even if the new… the new thing is a hundred times better. You know? Because people get, they get comfortable, right? They know their thing. Especially when you’ve got an organization that has, you know, invested decades sometimes into working the way they work, the platforms they use, you know, the interfaces that they’re comfortable with. Even if those interfaces are…

Gina: Terrible.

Chris: Quirky, and… yeah! They’re just bad.

Gina: People figure out how to work around them, and then they feel super proud and invested in their workarounds.

Chris: Because they’re experts!

Gina: And they say “I’m an expert at this. I know how to make this happen.”

Chris: Right.

Gina: Right? I put in the time and the effort, and I figured this out, and I am an expert here, right? So if you change the software and make it easier, it’s like “Wait a second, you just took my job away.” 

Chris: Right.

Gina: You took away how important I am, and how… you know, my expertise no longer matters.

Chris: Right.

Gina: Right? Like, I think this is ultimately, as humans, you know… all of us, like the greatest is “I’m just… I’m not gonna matter as much.”

Chris: I mean, that’s a great point. And figuring out how to counteract that is really key for leaders, right?

Gina: Yes.

Chris: Leaders of organizations or project leaders, to say “How do you make sure that you’re getting buy-in as part of this process, right?” We think a lot about this. How do we get buy-in from people? Your point about the conversation with the senior leadership team before, that is something that we were really cognizant of, right? We need our leaders, who are fantastic, we want them bought in.

Gina: Come with us on the journey.

Chris: Come with us. Help us figure this out.

Gina: Yeah.

Chris: This is the other thing. People do have some control over what happens in these areas. It’s just hard to see it that way.

Gina: You don’t feel like you’re in control. You feel like change is happening to me.

Chris: Exactly.

Gina: But it’s not. Everybody is, you know, participates in the way that you participate. This is something that we’ve, like… We try to get our leaders to say “Oh, when’s this going to happen?” and “Let us know when it’s going to happen.” It’s like, no, no, we want you to come in here and make these decisions with us. Like, we want you to be a partner… you are a part of this. This isn’t happening to you, we’re doing it together.

Chris: We’re doing it together.

Gina: It’s really hard to feel like you’re doing it… (Laughs) 

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: …with your leaders when it is happening to you, right? Like, there’s some parts that are happening to you, but you can participate. And it’s hard to see that, feel that control. You know?

Chris: Totally. In one of our meetings, one of our leaders made a great analogy that we then used as we were talking about it with a wider group, which is “We are not moving into a house that is already built, and we don’t have to learn all the quirks of that house and move all our stuff in and rearrange things and figure… we’re building a house. We’re designing the house.” And that is a very empowering thing. And it’s true. It’s like, oh. We’re creating something. And it’s not to say that there aren’t constraints. There are constraints! Right?

Gina: Yes.

Chris: Just like there would be if you were building a house. There are constraints on the land and the materials and the blah blah blah blah blah. But we have some say. We have a lot of say as to how this thing gets stood up. And I’m using a broad definition of “we” here. I don’t mean you and me. I don’t mean just our senior leadership team. I mean everybody at Postlight, I mean everybody at other parts of the company. Like, they have influence…

Gina: Yes.

Chris: …over what ultimately happens. And I… you know, that is something that is important in any change process, is figure out how to empower people. How to give them a say. And make sure that they feel… (a), make sure that that say is real.

Gina: Right.

Chris: You know, they actually can influence things. And (b), make sure that they feel the impact of their changes. And say “Oh. This is…”

Gina: That’s right. “I did this. I put my fingerprints here.”

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: And, also, make it clear that if the architect says “That wall isn’t gonna hold up that floor,” we can’t do it. Right? Like, this is the delicate dance, right? You know…(Laughs) 

Chris: Yes.

Gina: (Laughs) And, you know, we were a relatively small boutique firm, and you and I were decisionmakers on what happened at Postlight, and that’s changing. I think that’s confusing. You know, it’s like, “Wait, who’s in charge?”

Chris: Right.

Gina: It’s fascinating. It’s really, really fascinating. It’s like “No, no, no, we have a lot of influence and also now we are part of a bigger thing.”

Chris: Right. And we will compromise.

Gina: It’s a pretty big house! We’re moving into a big house.

Chris: We’re moving into a much bigger house. (Laughs)

Gina: It’s gonna be… it’s gonna be awesome.

Chris: Yeah.

Gina: But it’s… there’s a lot more rooms to think about here.

(Both laugh)

Chris: That’s right. That’s totally right.

Gina: Boy, I feel like I’m really teasing, uh… we’re excited to tell you all about the new house soon. (Laughs) 

Chris: Yes.

Gina: It’s… we’re still, like, hammering in the drywall at the moment.

Chris: Yep.

Gina: This was very cathartic. I feel like all of our episodes are very cathartic. Thank you every… anyone who is listening at this moment, because it just feels so good to get this out. (Laughs) 

Chris: It really does. It’s also, I think some of these things are universal, you know?

Gina: Yeah.

Chris: We are all going through our own set of changes. You, listener, your change may be different than the change that we’re going through, but some of the same things hold. I hope it was helpful.

Gina: Yeah, and we love talking about this stuff. And we are in it. Boy, we are in it. So, reach out if you’d like to talk about it, because we’d love to hear from you. Uh, we read every message that comes in.

Chris: Thanks, Gina.

Gina: Thanks Chris. 

Chris: This was fun. More to come soon.

Gina: More to come!

Chris: Bye.

Gina: Bye.