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It feels like every week a new software as a service project management tool pops up. This week we discuss if these spreadsheet-like project management tools can act as a good template for shipping products. We discuss the power dynamics related to project management and talk about whether these notification driven tools are actually effective or if they are instead just a bit annoying.  


Paul Ford You know, there is a point where engineers were all talking about how you can’t really have deadlines for software. And you noticed that that conversation lasted about four months in our high metabolism, conversation engine around technology, like nobody believes that. [music ramps up, plays alone for 15 seconds, fades out]

PF Rich!

Rich Ziade Hey, Paul. How are you today?

PF Good. I miss looking over your shoulder from the olden times, and making fun of you. [Rich chuckles]

RZ Fair enough. I could get another webcam and set it up over my shoulder. 

PF So that I can come up behind you and go, what are you doing? Why are you are you—are you WhatsApp-ing? You’re the number one user of desktop WhatsApp in America. 

RZ I might be. It actually runs weird, too. It doesn’t—it’s not an actual client, it uses your phone, it’s just a GUI to your phone.

PF I guess we should explain, like WhatsApp is, is how Lebanon communicates. So like the whole family…

RZ How much of the world communicates.

PF So one of the things that you’ve told me about that I miss seeing and yelling you about, is that you’ve been out looking at the whole crop of software as a service, like project management tools. 

RZ Yeah, I have. [Rich chuckles]

PF The sad thing is I don’t have to ask why. Like this is just a normal thing. But in the same way that you and I—have we confessed on the show about how—we have. We’ve talked about how we go in during lunch, and we watch YouTube videos of enterprise software demos.

RZ We have. Because it’s a lot of it is fascinating to us. 

PF It’s like watching the Daytona, like it’s like you’re watching cars go around. And you’re like ”No! No! Oh, my god!” 

RZ Yeah, it’s something I mean, there are products out there that I to this day don’t understand how they are pervasive and very successful. Not that they’re terrible products. It’s just I just don’t know, the, the business culture that they thrive in that well. I think that’s what it is for both of us, right? You’re a writer—


PF I don’t have the problem that SAP is trying to solve. 

RZ Right, exactly. And it turns out entire industry, an entire industry, a massive, massive industry has been born out of solving those problems. 

PF I really want to understand what that problem is like, why does that exist? Why does if I never need to use a single SAP product in my life, but it’s worth a million dollars, like some unbelievable amount, this huge world spanning globe. Why? Right? Like why? Like, I know what Google is, they get a little bit of my attention every time I do a search. And I know, you know, I know what Microsoft is because I use Word. Yeah, they have big enterprise parts. But that makes sense. And then you get to these giant software, sort of sleeping giants. Like the krakken. And you’re like, what, what is that? But now, there’s even small products like products that are sort of—we’ve talked about Pendo on the show before and then the one that I’m fascinated, you become fascinated by, I haven’t been—is

RZ is, is something. 

PF First of all, you can’t go anywhere, like my children pop up, you know, you’ll be in the shower, and your kid will stick their face in and go ”Hey, Dad,”

RZ Yeah, I think it’s cooled off a bit. But man, they just owned YouTube for a long time because they went wide and far rather than like, let’s really target the demographic that’s gonna want to use this. They just went crazy. 

PF So let’s start here. Let’s actually start at the very beginning because it’s called it’s obviously some sort of project management software from the ad. The name tells you nothing. It’s not called ”Get It Done” or ”Move”

RZ No, it’s a hell of a URL, give them credit for that.

PF You went in, you spent a lot of time with

RZ is a platform for—well let me read on it right off their website. ”One platform, better teamwork.” Subhead, ”Highly effective teams choose to manage their work.” Great boil down statement there of what it is. And you know, Monday is not alone. There are a lot of players out there that essentially any work environment where multiple people are needed to work in an orchestrated fashion to get something done. Turns out that breeds a massive, massive software space. Some call it project management software, some call it workflow management, some call it workflow software. Monday doesn’t use any of those words, which is I think, interesting. 


PF Pause for one sec, right? This is the big reveal for the listener like ”why are you doing this?” Because this part of our world is really important to us, like workflow is something we talk about a lot. [yes] People need to log in and do things with computers and like this is a huge space. We spend a lot of time in our company building things where people are moving cards along for our clients. You know, we’ve talked about Air Table a lot on this show. There’s a lot of other ones, Salesforce and so on. And so that’s why you’re in here. You’re trying to figure out this part of the world.

RZ Yeah, I mean, exactly. And and look, the one person workflow tool is the to-do list. Because I’m alone, I don’t need to coordinate with anyone, I just need to motivate myself. I start my day by looking at the list of things I’ve left myself to do. I don’t rely on others to get them done. You know, and there are plenty of those, there’s Todoist, we had we had the founder of Todoist on the podcast, there are other tools out there. 

PF Can I tell you the single greatest time management tool I’ve ever seen for groups? [yes] Okay, this is I used to be on NPR’s All Things Considered as a commentator, years ago, 2003.

RZ Mhmm, showing off, but go ahead. 

PF 2004. No, it just happens to be a little fact about me. So a little something that I used to do. So I got, as I always do, I got into the workflow. And I would talk to the editor about how they made the show, because editors like to talk about it, I like to listen, I got to be a friend. And she sent me once a picture. And this is a while ago, right? So what it was, is like a webcam that took a picture, like every minute, and it was a whiteboard, and every minute of the show was a rectangle. And you would fill in how it was like in the show 60 minutes long, or it was like every two minutes, I don’t know. But like, it was all these rectangles, and it would be filled in by somebody with a whiteboard marker on that little rectangle for what was going to go in those two minutes, and things would move around all day. And you could always go look at the whiteboard on the camera. And the team was national. And it was so good, man, it was so good. 


RZ Oh! Interesting. So you just log in and look at the board. 

PF And the director, the person who had authority, you know that—so I think that the headquarters is in DC. So it was like in DC, there’s this whiteboard. And the people who were putting the show together who were in charge of that, were coordinating with editors making sure things were recorded as the audio in so on, and so forth. I mean, even in those days, which, you know, technologically like things are very advanced. But it was still the same idea. Like you could put audio on a server, they’re waiting for stuff to come in. And some of it came in two weeks ago. And some like my commentaries could run whenever.

RZ Fascinating. 

PF Some of it was news that had been recorded two hours ago, or it was coming out of Capitol Hill. And so you would watch, like, she sent me a couple pictures of it. And it was so good. Like, you were just like, ”Oh, okay” everybody knows what the objects are like, what the components are of the show, that’s the shared knowledge. Not anybody can move the rectangles around, there’s a certain authority, like somebody has to sit there with the whiteboard, there’s a certain amount of cost, like you gotta you’re gonna, you’re gonna move it around, you’re probably going to eat, let people know. But at any moment, the best available approximation of that evening show, as it’s going to be put together, is available to everyone so that they can organize and plan and it’s just that representation.

RZ It makes sense. I mean, it’s it’s this one place, right? Like this is the canonical representation of the thing. 

PF You know what the assumption is, though, it’s that you’re an adult who can look at that and make concerted intelligent decisions about what to do next, related to your job.


RZ Funny, when you go into, or any of these tools, frankly, Smartsheet is another one. Asana is another one. Some are born out of software development, by the way, some of them are born out of that world, which is tons of just task tracking across disciplines, across responsibilities, tickets, right? The ticket is the currency that flows through these things. Monday doesn’t aim to be that, you can be you can use it for that, but it’s also like it has sort of templates for all these industries, construction, real estate, HR, finance, law.

PF Wait, what is that, what is a template?

RZ Okay, a template is essentially a starting point. Let’s say you’re doing a listing. So what’s involved in it? First, you meet the owner who’s interested in selling, you take notes, you write up a couple of paragraphs, right? Once you write the paragraphs you’re going to send a photographer over to take all the photographs Oh, it doesn’t look so great. Let’s hire a staging company that’s going to bring in furniture to make it look really lived in and and charming. [Paul chuckles]

PF And then we got a guy with a fisheye lens that will make every room look like it’s roughly five football fields long..

RZ There’s that, right. And then, okay, now it’s ready, photographs are done. Now it’s time to post. Where are you posting it? You posting it on Zillow and Trulia on MLS and Once it’s posted, now it’s live, right, so now that’s the state of the thing has changed. What I’m going through here and keep going and you know, offers are coming in and now it’s getting delisted, etc, etc. That is a workflow where usually, unless it’s a mom and pop real estate office, has different participants that are necessary for the whole thing to go through its journey from ”I’d like to sell my house” all the way to ”Put the sold sign up” right. There’s all sorts of things happening. And Monday has a setup where you can go in and they’ll say, ”Oh! Property!” and it has you know, the fields that you know are going to be needed. What are the fields? The address of the property, when it’s getting listed, the asking price, other information about it, like a summary, description, paragraph, a gallery of photo, all of those things, the management of those things, is something that a tool like Monday could help you with, right? And here’s the other bit though that I want to hone in on. Monday is unwieldy. It’s complicated. Like it’s, it’s, I’m a pretty savvy user. I mean, I’ve helped run a technology company, so I better be. And I found myself hunting and packing and looking for how to do things in Monday.


PF Let me let me ask you a weird question. What does it look like when you go in? Like what is its kind of base of design operations?

RZ It looks like Excel, like chartered a single prop engine plane and landed in Ibiza with a suitcase full of cash.

PF Okay, that’s what looks like?

RZ It’s just, it follows—look, let’s pause for a moment and talk about Excel. The spreadsheet is the single most utilized and most powerful workflow management tool. Far and away to this day, most people keep track of all the steps and all the stuff in a damn spreadsheet, the spreadsheet is the descendant of the accounting ledger. It’s not supposed to be for this. But you know, those rectangles are so neatly stacked. 

PF Computers are good at lists.

RZ Credit to Monday to understanding and leveraging the patterns around spreadsheet entry. Right? That’s really what it is. It’s a really jacked up spreadsheet, it’s got a lot of other capabilities, but it’s lists, it’s groupings of lists. The thing that I think is worth honing in on is who uses it. The curious and savvy computer user will use it. But as a project has more and more participants in it, what happens is, this new role kicks in, their job is to just be the driver of the effort and unblocking different people. Typically, this is called the project manager. And what they do is they tap people on the shoulder a lot because they track everything in a tool like this. And then they go and I call it enforcement, they go and they say, ”You know, you told me you’re going to get those photos on the house, by Thursday, I need to list this, the homeowner said, we promised the homeowner that by Friday it would be listed, where are my photos?” Now Monday, will do things like—and they all will—and around reminders, you just start getting pelted with emails, dude, it’s just an abomination to the point where you become numb to the notifications, they just they’re not useful. 


PF This is what’s tricky, right, is what happens is the core consumer on workflow products is that project manager. And the default mode with all those emails and notifications is a kind of infantilizes people, it’s like ”Well, you don’t know you’re supposed to do so the computer is going to tell you 40 times a day.” And people get very granular when they set up this task because they feel that they’re helping you right, it’s like I’m gonna I’m gonna organize it. Like one of the most interesting things we’ve ever done in terms of the impact it had is this Slack tool called Dash, you can, an admin for Slack can install it. And all Dash does is make a little tiny channel with an expiration date. Puts a dash in front of the name. And it sort of like we’ve got a dash for organizing all the things related to that white paper, when it comes in, who needs to look at it next. What’s different than a regular channel? Nothing except that has an expiration date. And that’s not even enforced. It just creates a model where everybody’s in conversation about getting the thing done, but it’s actually not nagging them. It’s just an ambient conversation for everyone who needs to get something done, as opposed to here’s the 50,000 tasks that need to transpire in order for this to be completed.

RZ But why do people listen to it? You know, Dash doesn’t require is, it doesn’t require a project manager, you don’t have to invite one into Dash and so why does that succeed? Whereas tools like Monday, have to somehow get your attention. And I think there’s a few reasons why. One is there’s no interface, I don’t have to negotiate with this unwieldy interface to find out what I need to do next. The truth is, specialized talent, when they get prodded by project managers, hate going in these tools. If I’m a structural engineer for on a construction site, nobody’s gonna say ”Please do me a favor, login to Monday and just put your thing in?” No one’s gonna do that. They don’t, they don’t want to go in and negotiate with this big, unwieldy thing. I think what’s interesting about Dash for Slack is two things, the interface, the product is all human. It’s all people. I don’t even—I’m the president of the company. And you think ”Ah! You know what, give me three more days” I feel pressure. I don’t want to set that example. I want to do what I promised, I promised you the article, I’m going to give you the article. 


PF Here’s the thing, a Dash allows you to go in—this is not an ad for Dash I brought up that sort of spontaneously. But like, the conversation, the channel allows you to go in and talk and have some context. Now, I could go in there and be like, ”Oh, hey, I’m late. Whoops.” But the reality is I’m gonna have to do that in front of all my peers.

RZ Yeah, I think the there’s another aspect to it. There is a very subtle time pressure associated with Dash. You just can’t stroll into hours before the whole thing is supposed to end. Remember, that channel has an expiration date and time. And you can’t stroll in two hours before on the last day and say, ”Oh man, I just saw I just checked this out,” because you can’t get lost in it. Because it’s so, it’s singular existence is just to get that one thing done. If you go and stare at a Monday screen, and it’s very colorful, they like color at It’s very hard to orient yourself and prioritize what you should do. Very hard, right? The people that love tools like this, and this isn’t about Monday, this is about Basecamp, this is about Asana, this is about Smartsheet, this is about other ones. The people who love them are the ones that use them as an auditing mechanism around what other people should do. Those are the people that love them. Nerds love them to some people like we have people who really like them, just because they like good tools that are just very functional and powerful. But for many, they are unwieldy, right. They’re not for that purpose. So the question that arises is how do you let that tool drive forward motion, unlike your webcam NPR board, where everyone seems to know what they need to do next, how do you get the tool to keep forward motion going without a lot of human intervention? Because there is nothing more annoying than the project manager who first asks you how your weekend was? And second says, ”Man, what day is it? Because it’s a pandemic, isn’t that crazy?” And then the third thing they say is, ”Where’s my damn thing?”


PF Yeah, no, that’s real. [Rich laughs] Look. We’ve talked about the jobs to be done framework on the show before, which is a kind of, it’s an approach to creating products. And you ask yourself, why did someone hire this object? And so like, you know, I hire a milkshake because it gives me a special time with my son. That’s why I’m—

RZ Okay, so, I don’t know, I haven’t read the Jobs To Be Done book. That’s a job to be done, reading the Jobs To Be Done book. But is it this? Is it by knowing why you’re doing what you’re doing, you’re more easily aligned with helping getting it done? Is that the thinking?

PF Well, it’s more that, don’t assume that the cultural and the commercial category that a product exists in, is the actual reason that people buy it. You know, I buy I bought a certain kind of light, I look good on webcam, not to light up my room, but it’s just a light, you know, since it’s that, like, make sure you know what the job of the product truly is. But what I’m getting back to is that each one of these products—actually really, when you are buying a software as a service product, you’re essentially hiring a person. You know, you’re saying, I don’t want to stand in the middle here. Like if you asked me to anthropomorphize Air Table, who is Air Table? Air Table is somebody with a slide role? Right, just kind of organizing everything all the time. It’s a librarian. from everything you’ve described is a really naggy project manager who likes to keep track of a bazillion different data points.


RZ What’s the ultimate example, Paul? Here, here it is: writing. There is nothing more gloriously constraining than getting it to press. I don’t care how finicky and annoying and full of shit the writer is. That thing’s going to press and you owe me the damn article. Have you missed that date where you’re supposed to get them the thing and you never got it to them? Or you didn’t get it to them in a good enough state that it didn’t the article didn’t make it in? Has that ever happened to you? 

PF Uhh, I’m thinking because it’s been a long career, no.

RZ No. 

PF With the exception of my book, but all books are late. 

RZ Okay, no, that’s the other thing. I want to know, I want to mention that other example: the book. The book isn’t going to press.

PF The book deadline is always aspirational, unless it’s time sensitive. But the magazine deadline is absolutely not aspirational, is dead serious. And so there’s a whole lot of of tools and frameworks around it. I once made this joke. And it’s one of those jokes that fell so flat that I literally just had to go into management. The joke was ”If you want to know what the ultimate writing technology is, in order to get something done, it’s brand new, and it’s called deadlines.” 

RZ Right. It’s very true. Not funny, but very true.

PF First of all, people want to be creative, right? And they want to be expressive. And the idea that someone will be sitting there waiting for you to be creative or expressive. Feels like work. Well, of course it’s work, all the writing you read all the things you read in magazines, all the newspapers you pick up, are work for someone but there’s a fantasy. Same with movies. Movies are, are made by really tired people who are probably getting divorced.

RZ No, it’s like notorious, the great directors are always late, right? They always run over budget and they’re always late. 

PF Well, but look at that framing, though. Like they’re not, they weren’t given unlimited budget. [no] They pushed it. And they tend to kind of know where the limits are. They’re like, ”Ah, you know, we’re gonna keep going.” You’re gonna, you’re in too far. I own the bank.

RZ And so it’s about exerting pressure. I mean, the beauty of the monthly magazine deadline is that the individual, the different people that are exerting that pressure have just the most awesome reason, which is, we’re monthly magazine. Like, I’m not, I’m not just trying to be a jerk. Look, I do this right I actually, I do this I’ll create dates out of thin air just to sort of orient things. And I don’t mean it, I don’t do it to be a jerk. I just do it because it starts to get scary to me. Because you can always spin and keep in throw ideas around and start from a new draft again, because it didn’t feel right. 


PF You know what happens if you give people years, they invent from first principles, instead of using what’s out there. Right? They go like, ”Oh, well, you know, what if we had our own component library on the front end that finally, finally, let us be truly productive instead of this enormous heap of garbage that millions of people have used to make trillions of dollars that I don’t want anything to do with anymore, I can make something better.” That’s human nature. I’ve done that, I’ve designed programming languages on the on the weekend, and then I, I sort of lift up from the screen and I go, like, ”Oh, I have no idea what I’m doing this would be a really bad use of my time.” [Rich chuckles] Look, this is the thing, with the writing, is that the consequence of you can miss that deadline, and you’re not going to jail, you won’t get paid. But they’re not going to invite you back. [yeah!] Okay. So the filtering process there is profound, because the people who can’t make the deadlines get sent away from the island really, really quickly. And they might have a flame out on Twitter or, or say bad things afterwards. But regardless, they’re not getting back in because it couldn’t meet that threshold.

RZ Your members, your client, couldn’t rely on you. That’s a huge, huge signal, right?


PF I mean, it’s, it’s tricky for me, right, because I am the CEO of a company, I run Postlight with you, and at the same time when I am being edited, so I have a column in Wired, I go out about 10 times a year with one page. And it doesn’t sound like a lot, but it’s actually, it’s a lot of work to get that page right at the level of the national magazine, it’s just a, it’s a skill I have it, it actually takes time. I was hesitant to do it because in this world, in the Postlight world, I’m able to have a little flexibility around my time, because actually Postlight orient itself around us because we run the company. In this case, I flip a switch when I’m writing, and I work for my editor, and she gets to tell me anything that she wants me to do. And she gets to tell me when it has to get done. And I don’t have I don’t I don’t give a peep. I just go ”Yep, okay.” That’s the dynamic! And I actually, first of all, I’m proud of being able to switch between those two, I like being an IC from time to time, I think that’s healthy for the human. Yeah. And that it’s just like when that hammer comes down—like bringing it back to this right, I take pride in the ability to to get it done and have it as a good quality, like still, like it’s not, I don’t drive the most value into the world. And I don’t maybe generate the most money by doing that. But that’s important to my self-awareness. It’s not simply that the software, the person or whatever nags me. That’s a two way relationship where getting the work done and contributing to the overall effort, which in this case, is the publication of Wired magazine online and in print, I feel a sense of responsibility and success when that happens, and I contribute to it. And so it’s not just that this, I think what sucks about a lot of these tools is a very one way about the power dynamics,

RZ Meaning it gives all the power to that project manager, to that enforcer. You know, you know, it’s been funny with Wired is a lot of the conversations I’m having with my editor are on Twitter DM, and I really wish they were Slack. Like we found a way to just start chatting, because everybody chats. But nobody picks up the phone anymore, used to be you would call editors and talk for a long time. Like, you’ve got to build that relationship to do a good job on both sides and sort of understand what the other person needs without it just coming down as them like ”I need it today. I need it today.” It needs to be a conversation. And what these tools do is they kind of infantilize you. And they kind of pretend that work happens along these schedules without human interaction. Sometimes—

RZ You’re making a profound point here, because this speaks to why Dash is proven so effective for us, because it’s all conversation. There is no tool, it’s not boxes and rectangles. It’s just the conversation. And people orient around that in a very profound way. 


PF You know, I find myself wishing with that other relationship that I had Slack. And I could be a kind of subordinate member of the Wired Slack. So I could be in that conversation and participate and also participate in the success when it goes out. I’m not really complaining here, I have an ideal relationship. It’s just, that instinct is there. It’s like, ”Oh, you know what would be nice.” And it’s like, do I need to be in another Slack? No. But that to me—so that’s where workflow really falls down. It feels like what you’ve got, what you see in developer culture is that there’s the kind of GitHub issues and ticketing based workflow. And then there’s always been the chat channel running alongside, right. So you always have the conversation related to the tickets. 

RZ I think you’re touching on something pretty important here, which is if you’re a project manager, or you’re a coordinator, project coordinator that really doesn’t empathize or care about the world in which that person you’re talking to is in, you just want to thank And you don’t care about the thing, and you don’t have an opinion about it. ”It’s just give me the thing. I need the sign off. Just give me the sign off. Did you? Did you inspect it? And are we signed off?” And you don’t give much of a shit about what was involved in that or what’s going on in that person’s world. That’s a sad dynamic, and it’s always going to be a strange one, right? That’s a tension that exists there. Versus the conversation we’ve talked about in the past, the distinction between a project manager and a product manager, I think the distinction with a product manager is they want to understand the substance of the thing. They’re not just traffic copping. And again, it sounds like I’m shitting on project managers, I am not, they are necessary in very complex situations. But you can be a better project manager, if you talk to and care about the different participants in the flow.


PF A project managers job is to execute. The true gift of the product manager is not just they keep the quality up, they see the whole thing, all these things that we know about. But they also have they are empowered to skip enormous number of steps if they can get the right outcome. So like a project manager typically is not empowered in the same way, they need to follow the plan to get it done. A product manager could say ”Why don’t we just use this API and pay $30 a month, instead of building something ourselves for $400,000?” And that would not typically be something you would expect a project manager to come up with.

RZ Nor would these tools help you in any way, right? Like—

PF They won’t help you with that. 

RZ None of these tools have an opinion about shortcuts and in ways to do make things better. 

PF Where does that conversation happen? It happens in Slack.

RZ I think it happens in Slack, it happens in email, and whatnot. Because the tool is not going to say, ”Hey Rich, you know, three days for design is a little short, it really should be eight.” No tools do that. 

PF The cards all have—and this is true of ticketing systems, and you know, sounds like it’s in Monday, it’s definitely an Air Table—where they have that common field hanging off of the card. [yeah] But it doesn’t, it feels like that’s isolated. It feels like that’s a place to be like you can ‘at’ people and sort of—

RZ It’s become more prevalent though. Like in Monday, it’s right front and center. When you tap on anything. It’s the comment thread, which, which is them, I think acknowledging the, the importance of of conversation. 

PF The best conversations and software are the ones where you’re able to get rid of like 55 cards in the back log.

RZ Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.

PF Absolutely, where you’re like ”Actually, we’re not going to, you know, that whole tronche is going, we’re not going to do it” You know, or that company shut down or whatever. And you’re not going to get to that by talking about each card individually. Like it’s fine to be tracking tasks. But tasks are not actually the center of getting the thing done. The center of getting the things done is like a shared understanding where everybody’s able to operate independently. There’s a fantasy here, right, which is, that if I just make the list detailed enough, and assign things correctly, it will get done. And for various aspects of human personality, which are utterly perverse that will never ever be true. You can’t turn the people into robots, no matter how hard you try, no matter how nice you make it and how you reward them. It just never works. And I’m sure people will want to say—it never works. 


RZ Checkout Dash for Slack, I’m fully convinced that Dash, if it did not require your administrator to install it, it would be something that would be really popular and a lot of people would latch on to, but alas, you have to talk to your Slack administrator. 

PF I mean, success for Dash will be when Slack builds a—

RZ Obliterates in? Yeah. Just eliminates it as a need. Yeah, exactly. [Paul chuckles]

PF We know they like it. 

RZ Yeah, I’ve seen that movie before. 

PF That’s fine, that’s life. 

RZ So Paul, Dash is a product of Postlight Labs. 

PF We actually didn’t set out to talk about Dash, but people should definitely check out Postlight Labs and check out—

RZ Check out Postlight, we’re a digital strategy, design and engineering shop based everywhere. With headquarters in New York. Check out our case studies on and reach out, we’d love to talk and throw around ideas about how we can help you build your next level shit. 

PF I mean, you just heard it here. If you want a company that will, in its spare time, think really hard and long about workflow and project management software, what would make a better experience? [Rich laughs]

RZ Are you mocking me, Paul? [Rich laughs]

PF If you want that, which frankly, let me be clear, you really do. You actually want that. [Rich laughs] That’s who you want to talk to. No, because you don’t want to do it, my god, who wants to do that? [Paul laughs] And also, we’re hiring! We’re hiring in Lebanon, in Beirut, and we are hiring all around the United States for engineers, product managers, designers, front end, back end engineers. So definitely check out our website, look at the careers page. We continue to grow and we’d love to talk to everybody. So get in touch.

RZ Have a great week everyone.

PF Alright, Richard, back to work! Back to looking at [Rich chuckles]

RZ Okay. [music ramps up, plays alone for 3 seconds, ends]